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NAC Type-II 799 New Cassettes

Discussion in 'Cassettes' started by Virgil Gheorghiu, Dec 8, 2017.

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  1. Virgil Gheorghiu

    Virgil Gheorghiu Member

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    I've ordered 10 of these last week; yesterday they came in the mail. Here are some general impressions about the quality of the tape and shell mechanism.

    Procedure:
    1) I recorded a variety of 1980-2015 pop, rock, disco songs on it. From Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five to Joe Satriani and Prince. The songs have good dynamics and this translated well to tape.
    2) I used the B-Rec (Blank Record) feature on my tape deck which doesn't activate the erase head on virgin tapes. Supposedly this keeps the noise floor even lower, which is true: I don't hear any tape hiss.
    3) The primary reason there is no tape hiss is because I used Dolby S to record. It is comparable to source/CD S/N levels (>90dB).
    4) The recording came out very good. Supposedly the formulation is BASF Super Chrome (of which I have vintage sealed originals). I cannot tell if it's vintage BASF media or new formulation, the tape sounds similar to BASF Chrome from the '90.
    5) I noticed output level is not very consistent, and it appears to depend on the song. I record CrO2 tapes at +8dB peak. In this case some went to +10dB - +11dB without any noticeable distortion. Good headroom. However, on some songs I had a drop of about 2dB compared to the source. On others I had zero drop.
    6) The tape was calibrated with the typical 400Hz and 10kHz (I used the end of side A) with a slight compensation for more highs. I set Bias to High which is the recommended setting for this type of music.

    Recording impressions:
    - the resulting recording sounds smooth, almost identical to the original (some minor phase issues with my deck likely) and has excellent dynamics.
    - tape shell mechanism is very quiet. It doesn't quite reach the composite anti-resonance shells from TDK, Sony, Maxell, BASF, but it's pretty good.

    All in all, I am happy with the purchase and will use these tapes for serious recording.

    Equipment used:
    - recorder: Aiwa XK-S9000
    - sources: Sony CDP-707ESD (via optical out), iPhone X to Pioneer SC-81 Elite (via USB).
    IMG_0217.jpg IMG_0218.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
  2. walkman archive

    walkman archive Administrator Staff Member

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    Very interesting Virgil!
    I'd like to have a sample of every tape they are making to make a test.
    I'm surprised that you pushed the levels up to +11 VU which is huge. Not sure if this is possible thanks to Dolby S but I'll research a bit on this; I have used Dolby S very few; just to some exchanged mixtapes.
    With dbx it's possible to push the levels very high thanks to the big headroom, but +11 is truly high...
     
  3. Virgil Gheorghiu

    Virgil Gheorghiu Member

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    Hi, Hugo,

    I think they currently make the 70µs 799 and also a "normal" 120µs tape. I have TDK D stock so the normal is not very interesting to me at this time.
    How's the shipping from St. Louis to Barcelona?

    To be precise, it's +11dB peak, not average.
    I didn't see much difference in terms of headroom with or without Dolby S on other 70µs tapes (Maxell II-S, Sony Metal-SR, etc.). It appears the deck is quite capable of magnetizing the tape so high. I also always use Dolby HX.
    I sometimes do A/B comparisons against my Nakamichi 670zx - which just turned 40 years old this year: Happy Birthday old friend ! - and the Nakamichi can push about +3dB before it distorts.
    Tapes recorded on the Aiwa reach +5dB on the Nakamichi (close to the end of the 7dB VU scale).
    To note the Nakamichi measures average, not peak, so all is correct.

    Anyway, insofar they sound fantastic for the price. I wish them (and ATR Magnetics) all the best for keeping this medium alive.
     
  4. buzbox

    buzbox Active Member

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    No postage to Australia. Dammit!!
     
  5. walkman archive

    walkman archive Administrator Staff Member

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    Oh, don't worry. I wasn't saying I wanted them from you, but anyway thanks. In fact yesterday I contacted directly these guys at NAC to ask them if they would like to send me some test tapes for a review in my website. Let's see if they agree...

    Yes, I guessed that. +11 Average would not be huge, but out of this world :laugh:

    Ahh, now I see it more clear. That AIWA still uses the old Philips VU scale, which assings the Dolby mark (the true zero mark) to +2.8 VU. That means you can substract 2.8 from 11 to get the real peak: +8. It's still very high, but.. you know... more "human".

    This graph I made for my "How to make excellent recordings on cassette" guide sums it:

    [​IMG]

    In the Nak, the Dolby mark and the zero match, so there's 2.8 VU difference between both.

    And the rest of the diference comes from the peak/average measuring mode, which can sum easily 5 VU.
    All that explains your measurements. However, I'll try to record as high with my S9000 too. I've never went as high. Usually up to +3 (ocasionally +5 at some moments) with the best chromes like UX-S, SA and XL-II. When I say +3, I mean three over Dolby mark = +8 on the AIWA.

    Hope this clarifies that :thumbsup:
     
  6. Virgil Gheorghiu

    Virgil Gheorghiu Member

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    Excellent points, Hugo, I completely missed that.
    Let me add to that that the ‘true’ 0 is at precisely 0dB VU for both decks. It’s only the Dolby level that is ‘shifted’.

    As you pointed out, it’s a ‘scale’ issue; because the way Dolby NR ‘compresses’ the signal, at 0dB (Dolby) we actually have 2.8dB of signal that is not compressed.

    Some manufacturers (like Nakamichi) chose to align the 0dB Dolby mark with the 0dB VU (without Dolby). Others (like Aiwa, Philips) kept them separate. Internally, though, both Dolby systems work identically, it’s just the display that’s ‘shifted’.
    In fact there are two scales and you ‘read’ them differently (on the Aiwa and similar) depending if your NR system is active or not.

    What I was trying to point out was that I am usually recording at +8dB VU peak no matter if my NR is in or out. The Aiwa simply has more headroom than my Nakamichi, of course if the tape supports it. In my experience, Sony and TDK can repeatedly accept this level much more so than Maxell and BASF.

    On my reel-to-reel, the RMGI (EMTEC/BASF) tape performs admirably at up to +8dB without any NR.

    I wish you luck in requesting samples from NAC, they seem to be genuinely nice people.


    Let me also say that after putting the tape through a couple of Walkmans (Aiwa, Panasonic) I wish they improve the shell, it is not as stable in tape delivery as a vintage composite. On a dual capstan deck there are absolutely no issues in tape delivery.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
  7. walkman archive

    walkman archive Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, in terms of magnetic flux, it's the zero what is shifted. The dolby mark always correspond to the same flux. So it makes sense to say that the Dolby mark is the true 0dB.

    Totally agree :)

    Well, let's see. As by now, no reply from them so far...

    I also guessed that, but until I have one to test, I cannot say.
    I've received a mixtape this summer recorded on a NAC cassette and had no azimuth issues, though...
     
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  8. Virgil Gheorghiu

    Virgil Gheorghiu Member

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    Indeed, well said.

    I've done another little experiment: I've recorded another virgin 799 - again with Blank Recording - without any NR (HX Pro was still "in") and pushed it to +8dB - + 10dB peak as usual. Excellent sound.
    The reason I want to saturate the tape this much is:
    1) because I can :)
    2) because the more I saturate the tape, the lower the noise floor
    3) because above +3 - +5 magic things happen that clearly "add" the acoustic signature of the deck + tape combination, which is what I am usually after when I mixdown my own songs.

    It's more like pretensioning (the full reel) is not doing a good enough job, especially on the small mechanisms of super-thin players.
    I've played a couple NACs on (alphabetically):
    - Aiwa HS-G330
    - Grundig beatboy 280
    - Panasonic RQ-S40, Panasonic RQ-S40V, Panasonic RQ-S70
    - Sony WM-GX655, Sony WM-FX553
    together with some vintage Sony Metal 100, BASF Normal 60, RAKS Normal 60, etc.

    The Aiwa, Grundig, both Sonys and the Panasonic RQ-S40 played all of the above perfectly.
    The other two Panasonics didn't like the NAC but had no issues playing all others.
    The tape was moving on the head at the very beginning of the reel, and by the second song it was stabilizing (once the take-up reel had accumulated a bit more tension).

    I’m suspecting the two Panasonics have slight wear issues in the train because the mechanism is exactly the same as the RQ-S40 (which is almost NOS - it’s incredible how this little machine sounds); however I clean and maintain all pinch rollers and internals on all my walkmans. None of these Panasonic S-series have any tape or head guide adjustments.

    Of course, neither the Nakamichi 670ZX nor the Aiwa XK-S9000 had any problems recording or playing back.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
  9. buzbox

    buzbox Active Member

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    Will be getting some next year. There is no option for postage to Australia but after emailing them they are happy to ship it to Australia. Quite expensive though.
     
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  10. Virgil Gheorghiu

    Virgil Gheorghiu Member

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    Hi, @buzbox,

    I'm glad to hear they replied to you!
    I don't know how much they quoted you, but I paid $13 for shipping from Missouri to California via UPS.
    The package is quite heavy, probably around 500g (1.1 lbs).

    It just hit me that technically you could ask them to ship USPS via Media Mail, because cassettes are media :reelspin:. That, though, takes forever to arrive in the U.S., slower than a non-turbo snail (mail).
    YMMV!

    Best,
    Virgil
     
  11. buzbox

    buzbox Active Member

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    I asked for a quote for 20 of these cassettes and got quoted $60 USD postage to Australia. Holy Jesus Batman!!
     
  12. Virgil Gheorghiu

    Virgil Gheorghiu Member

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    Hi, all

    Well, I was right. No "slight wear" either, a pretty serious misalignment:
    IMG_0397.jpg
    This is the "after" photo on my Panasonic RQ-S40V. What was happening was the forward pinch roller was not parallel to the capstan, but slanted at about 5º.
    I've disassembled the whole head bar, adjusted the pinch roller mounting axle to be correct and used Super Glue on both this side and the other side to prevent further movement.
    The rivet holding the axle had weakened - probably due to long use from the previous owner.
    To note the reverse pinch roller is perfect and its axle rivet has no play.

    Probably the 799 shell and the tape itself (thinner / coating) made enough of a difference in this machine. Other tapes were playing OK, as I noted before.

    After the fix, the NAC 799 tape is rock solid inside this walkman as well. Note to self: don't go blame the cassette before checking your own backyard :swoon2
     

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